I have been thinking about "bird language" for some time. Here are some of the questions I have asked myself. Birds of the same species that live in different countries, and haven't had any contact with each other, after centuries, would they still speak the same language? Would they have evolved, and speak an other dialect? Do birds learn other birds language, if they spend a long time with them, without being able to speak to their own kind? (I'm not talking about mimicking, real understanding? A blackbird, born in Australia, transported to Europe, would it sound like the blackbird he had never had contact with? There is a universal language, like the warning sounds, most animals and humans understand, but why haven't we learned to speak "bird"? We had thousands of years time! I'm interested in your thoughts.
That's a very good question Marie-Louise. I think the birds might still have the same dialect because they have no reason to change their language in any way. I'm not sure if a different life in other countries can change the song of the same species over time. I heard Blackbirds calling in England on a doco and they sounded exactly the same as our ones. Common Starlings calls would have changed due to the mimicking of our native birds but I'm not sure about those birds who don't do any mimicking.
Cheers, Owen.
here is an other thought: if a French baby is raised by English parents, it will speak English !( It will have to learn French later!) But if a Cuckoo baby is raised by a host parent, although it has never met his own,it will speak "cuckoo" ! Now, does that point to: a certain "language" is in the bird's DNA ?
M-L
I think it is more to do with the structure of the bird's vocal organs.
I can't find the source but studies of the Pied Currawong shows that their calls vary between different communities in different locations.
By personal experience, Noisy Miner calls also vary by location as well as time - unless I'm going deaf.
But the most extraordinary thing many of you may know of already is the research with Alex the African Grey Parrot. Birds learning another bird's language? How about birds understanding English?
Taz
Ahhhh...... Araminta..... interesting discussion..... but does anyone really know stuff like that? ALthough I did find someone who did a whole thesis on whether the Pied Butcher birds was truly a musician or not once when I searched. LOL
Sunshine Coast Queensland
What started me thinking about this topic, was Kimbolina and the cats. If nothing works to prevent cats from attacking birds,it might be because nothing speaks their language. What I mean, a bell around the neck might not warn a bird!? But a device,giving off the sound of a BOP would warn all the birds in the area, as this should be understood by all birds?! When mydaughter and I talked about this last night, she said something very interesting: I'm very glad, we don't understand, and speak the language of birds! Because humans would exploit birds just like every other animal we exploit! (Very good point she made!)
M-L
Good point on the bird communities Taz,
I have noticed the same with Pied Butcherbirds in different communities. The ones around my place and in Brisbane city in general have a particular main 3-note call, but I have noticed both in other areas personally and on recordings online, that the call is recognisably similar, but different in pitch or duration.
Cheers
Tim
Brisbane
It is a 6 note call here timmo, though sometimes they will shorten it, and it varies according to the season and situation. it can also be extended by a series of 4 deep throaty calls on the same note. I use that to get them to call to me at times...just the low whistle. Goodness knows what I am saying but it usually works :')
Sunshine Coast Queensland
Very interesting timmo and Birdie!! I wonder, if one would take a hole lot of eggs, would incubate them, then put them with birds of a different species, that would then talk an other "bird language", would the birds eventually learn an other language, or not? I'm still thinking, different to us, bird language is in the DNA. That is completely different to us humans! Isn't it? What does everyone else think??
M-L
This is how I think of it:
Although we have several languages and races, we are all of one species: Homo sapiens. We are mammals and every species of mammals have their own language, apes speak apes humans speak human and so on. Birds are a class itself containing several species: Pied Butcherbirds speak pied butcherbird, cuckoos speak cuckoo - you get the point. To get a species of bird to speak another bird's "language" is like getting a human being to speak ape. We have several languages however it is really not hard to learn to speak them (all it takes is a couple of weeks listening on Youtube). There may be variations of birdcall dialects within each species of birds as said above and it wouldn't be difficult for a bird entering a new community to learn that dialect I imagine.
That said, my rainbow lorikeet has been mimicking my cockatiel's calls - but that's just mimicking and I doubt he has any idea what he is saying in cockatiel.
For a species to adopt the vocalisation of another I think it would take several years of adaptation and maybe crossbreeding for it to happen.
But hey, nothing's imossible :)
Taz
All sounds good!! But, (with me, there always is a "but), none of that explains the fact, A cuckoo speaks cuckoo, without ever having heard his parents speak cuckoo before. You could say all of us learn a language , but a cuckoo never has! He never saw his parents! He just speaks it!! That is not learned , it has to be in its DNA !!! (Just like you, I speak several languages, but I learned them, they weren't in my DNA!)
M-L
Good question. Yeah it is probably some primal instinct rooted to genetics. But we ourselves had our own primal language. We cry when we're hurt or emotional, we scream in fear, we yell in anger, we laugh when we are happy. Our parents did no teach us that. We can probably sing without the aid of being taught an actual language too.
However this raises another question: the origin of language!
Taz
Indian Mynah's in Fiji and India/Pakistan sound exactly the same as the ones in Sydney, whistles, clicking and glucking is the same, so too in Melbourne. Also Sulphur Crested Cockatoos have some screeches etc in Papua New Guinea as do the ones in Sydney. Likewise the humble little Spotted Turtle Dove has the same calls and hoots as the ones heard in the UK. However, there no doubt will be variants.
That is so interesting Raven, although just what I suspected. The language is in the DNA of the bird, and goes so far back, to when all the birds must have had contact and common connections. That's the only way, that can be explained!! So, bird DNA has to be a lot stronger than human DNA. Otherwise we would still speak the language of our ancestors, or at least a variant of it?
M-L
It just came to me that when I was in Cairo (Egypt) in the mid 1980's I visted a chap that had pigeons (Feral Pigeon/Rock Dove) and they cooed and made the same noises as the ones back in Sydney too. He used their dried excrement as an additive (grinded into powder by his wife) to clothes dye, also common in Morocco I beleive where some locals have large pigeon cotes for this very resource.
Thanks Raven,you are confirming all my theories about bird language.I'm getting more and more fascinated by this!! What colour does bird poo powder dye your clothes?? Can only be grey? Speaking about poo and Africa, you know how they dry and burn it for heating and cooking. I always wondered, why we dont do this? We have horses and lots of "it", don't you think it could be pressed and then burned? (hey, if you want to start poo manufacturing, the idea is yours, Raven. It would make millions)
M-L
Araminta, we do burn cow dung out here in the Centre when we camp, but mainly as an insect repellent. about the only thing that makes camping bearable when the flies are in their millions.
I've succumbed to the birding bug!
Alice Springs, NT
Would it smell, if you would burn it in a fire place? We did mix cowdung into our mud bricks. A mix of horse an d cow poo with some straw should work well! Don't you think?
M-L
not sure, we are always in a river bed on sand so not in a confined space. Don't recall it smelling particularly bad, but then again, we are probably not smelling too flash after a few days either :-)
I've succumbed to the birding bug!
Alice Springs, NT
I remember watching a tv show were they did an experiment on bird language. They put a male bird isolated in a cage (I am not sure of which species, I think it was a robin) and he never heard a call form another bird. He then developed a call that was not like the true bird species, but more simple and plain. They then put the male with some female birds. The male started the mating ritual but the females did not except him at first. It took a while but the females finally accepted him and they mated. The baby bird then learned the same language as his father. As the chain continued, over the generations the call became improved! I think that after the fourth generation the call was back to normal species call. Truly fascinating. Thanks for bringing this up araminta, really made my brain work!
I remember watching a tv show were they did an experiment on bird language. They put a male bird isolated in a cage (I am not sure of which species, I think it was a robin) and he never heard a call form another bird. He then developed a call that was not like the true bird species, but more simple and plain. They then put the male with some female birds. The male started the mating ritual but the females did not except him at first. It took a while but the females finally accepted him and they mated. The baby bird then learned the same language as his father. As the chain continued, over the generations the call became improved! I think that after the fourth generation the call was back to normal species call. Truly fascinating. Thanks for bringing this up araminta, really made my brain work!
sorry about the double post, internet's getting mest up...
Regarding the use of dried grounded Pigeon faeces in cloths dye. Don't quote me, the acidic content of the dried excrement when ground as a powder is added to the colouring as a sort of stabilising agent giving some form of chemical stability to the dye solution. There was a documentary on SBS-1 a few weeks back on Morroco and air time was given to the use of Pigeon faeces in the dye process in Fez.
very similar to me, I used vinegar ( an acidic agent) to stabilise the dye, when I did Batic.
M-L