New lens or camera outfit questions.

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Barney
New lens or camera outfit questions.

Hi folks , and happy 2014 :)

Please bear with me , i am trying to decide whether to get another lens for my Panasonic GH1 , or to get a new outfit altogether.

Lens options > Panasonic 100-300 zoom , $550 , variety of opinions on 'sharpness' on internet.

                       > Olympus 75-300 [to fit panasonic] $650 ,      =same comment as above=

l would hate to get either and be disappointed re sharpness , contrast etc.

l have also looked at cameras and other lenses.

Leaning towards Canon. which one do people like?  Any info , personal experience , guidance would be greatly appreciated.

EOS 700D

EOS 60D

EOS 70D

EOS 7D 

[note: l like the idea of being able to shoot full HD video at 24fps , and having a microphone jack]

Lenses: [canon fit]

Affordable:

Sigma [various models] 70-300 , $150-$300 [plastic body?]

Sigma 150-500 f5.6 HSM $900

Sigma 120-400 f4.5  HSM $800

Canon 70-300 F4.5 USM $500

Desirable ?!

Canon 100-400 f4.5 Lseries  USM  $1700 *

Canon 300 f4 L series USM $1700*

Canon 400 f5.6 L series USM $1700*

[l would need to save for a bit longer to include any of the lenses above].

l know its a lot of info and a lot to ask , but there are some very knowledgeable photographers here who l hope can help me ,

Regards,

Barney.

sparrow
sparrow's picture

Personaly I own Nikon but a lot of friends and colleagues use Canon and the differences between them in the same price range are almost non-existant

Any of the bodies in your list would be fine the more you go up in price the more extras you get just look at the extras and ask yourself if you really need or want them and make your selection accordingly

Lenses are a diferant thing altogether this is where you get what you pay for ,if you can afford to go with the Canon L lenses ,yes they cost a lot more but in the long run they will out perform and out last the third party lenses (and they hold their value better too)

I would much rather have a top of the line lens and a mid range camera than the other way around anyday

you'll find a lot of photographers change there camera bodies as new stuff comes out ,but they tend to hang on to their well used lenses

Barney

may l ask what camera/lens combo you use sparrow?

sparrow
sparrow's picture

I use a Nikon D7000 and a range of lenses ,my favorite being a "very old" sigma 300f4 ,except for a couple of my favorites all my lenses are ether on or going on Ebay to fund a Nikon 500f4 vr ,I used one at work a few months back and fell in love !

The sigma 300f4 is a freak of a thing I have seen some really bad ones, mine looks awful and makes all sorts of noises but is tack sharp, I got lucky $300 on Ebay ,I cop a bit of flack over it but I let my photos speak for it !

Lachlan
Lachlan's picture

As I noted in the last new camera thread, it's always worth looking at Pentax's offerings, which are generally pretty good value. Especially the K-30 and the K-5 (and K-5 II) at the moment. 

My suggestion would be to sit down and think for a while about exactly how much you are willing to spend on new camera gear. Work out a budget of how much you are able to spend and then STICK TO IT! It is waaay too easy to spend heaps on camera gear.. The 'just a little bit extra money to get a better version of this and then some more on that' adds up awfully quickly. 

+1 for Sparrow's comments on lenses- it is generally better to get a great lens and mediocre camera than a mediocre lens and a great camera... 

I don't use Canon, so take my comments about it's gear with a pinch of salt, but out of your three 'Desirable' lenses, I would go for the 400mm f5.6. It is a said to be a wonderfully sharp lens, and at a great length for BIF photography. Sure, it is a bit slower than the f4 options, but it is a very small loss of light, and many people stop down a bit anyway for extra DOF and sharpness. Assuming you're using the lens for bird photography, I don't see what the point of an expensive zoom like the 100-400 is; you'll be using it towards the top of it's range anyway, and thus might as well get a prime lens. 

Out of the Sigma lenses, my choice would be the 150-500mm. I have only used a 50-500, it's sibling, but apparently the both of them are the sharpest of the Sigma zooms in that range. It would probably be better than the any of the x-300(ish)mm options; some of them are really good, but generally the x-300mm zooms sacrifice on build quailty and sharpness. But, they are more affordable, and if you are just generally trying to expand your photographic capabilities, you would be be better off buying one of them and using the savings on a couple of other lenses (such as a macro, wide angle or nifty 50 (or 35mm on APS-C) depending on your interests. 

Sorry I fixated on lens options, but I don't know very much about Canon or Nikon camera options; I only got as far as looking at lenses before choosing Pentax. Also, I can't give a relevant comment about the GH1, as you undoubtedly know more about it and the options available for it than me. 

Barney

Thanks for your reply Lachlan , l have looked at the Pentax cameras [k30,k3,k5 etc] too and like them a lot. the k30 seems to be good value for its specs. the 300 f4 lens seems good , but would have to use sigma if l wanted a bigger lens [100-400 , 150-500 etc].

l like several of the nikons , the d7000 seems like a good camera for the price ,  but the lens prices seem significantly more for similar lenses in canon.

l like too the canon 7d & 70d cameras , and really like the 100-400 usm lens. 

lve listened to what people have said , and am trying to balance budget/purpose.

My budget will be approx 2K

l would like to use whatever l get for  general photography too.

Question: does anyone use 2x extenders with their fixed or zoom lenses?

Thanks to all for advice so far,

Barney.

Barney

Lachlan , can you tell me what you use for your bird photography?

Can others tell me what they use?

Thanks again , 

Barney.

rawshorty
rawshorty's picture

G'day, Barney.

First thing i would say is do you know how a camera works or do you use auto?

If you use auto then i will say learn your camera first. Understanding how settings work is more critical than the gear you use.(Google is your friend)

If you do understand how it all works then next step is to work out what you want and/or need.

If you want to take video, then get a video camera.(my opinion)

I have used Canon camera's for many years so i am biased, but all new camera's are very capable.

For the birds i use a Canon 7D and Sigma 150-500.

One thing to take note of is that to get a good crisp sharp photo of a bird you need to be close, if you have too much distance between you and the subject atmospheric conditions will be your enemy.

Shorty......Canon gear

Canberra

http://www.flickr.com/photos/rawshorty/ 

sparrow
sparrow's picture

I totaly agree with everything Shorty has said ,knowing how your gear works and understanding how different settings will affect the final image is more important than which camera you use, my Nikon tends to over expose in bright sunny conditions so I make adjustments to compensate for this .

Personaly I "HATE" video on DSLR cameras.

All the new cameras are pretty good but I think Canon is a better option for birding because of the better range of suitable lenses available, and at lower prices 

And to get nice crisp photos of "anything" its better to get as close as you can,I was taught to always try to "fill the frame"!

I have tried to like the sigma 150-500 mm mind you the one I have used is a loaner and has not been fine tuned to my camera, I have seen some fantastic photos taken using one, Shorty's included ,even Ken Rockwell has said how sharp they are and the best thing to come out of sigma ,so it might just be the one I borrow that is soft.

Keep in mind that these are just my personal opinions others can feel free to disagree with any of my comments.

markparkinson998
markparkinson998's picture

Hi Barney, if you are really serious about bird photography, I would definitely go for a dslr

I only have experience using Canon having started with a 10D and upgrading to a 40D and now using 5Dmkiii

I think a crop body is a good option as you rarely sem to have as much focal length as you want.

I dont have any experience with any of the lenses you mention, I am using mostly a Sigma 300-800 which works well on full frame

The Canon 100-400 is a popular lens but never really fancied it myself as I dont like the design.

Barney

rawshorty wrote:

G'day, Barney.

First thing i would say is do you know how a camera works or do you use auto?

If you use auto then i will say learn your camera first. Understanding how settings work is more critical than the gear you use.(Google is your friend)

If you do understand how it all works then next step is to work out what you want and/or need.

If you want to take video, then get a video camera.(my opinion)

I have used Canon camera's for many years so i am biased, but all new camera's are very capable.

For the birds i use a Canon 7D and Sigma 150-500.

One thing to take note of is that to get a good crisp sharp photo of a bird you need to be close, if you have too much distance between you and the subject atmospheric conditions will be your enemy.

Thanks Shorty [and others],

l am familiar with the various modes on my camera , A , S , custom etc , and exposure values +- etc.

The biggest handicaps l have now with the Panasonic are 1: lens focal length = 145mm max , and 2: an autofocus system that simply cannot cope with leaves/grass/twigs etc. The camera takes perfectly good 'normal' photos. l could buy a 100-300 lens for it , but online reviews frequently talk about the lens 'softness' at 300mm. 

So , l am looking for a camera that has 'spot' focus capability , and availability of affordable mid-priced zoom lenses. Video etc is secondary , but l would use it periodically [probably not for bird stuff , and with a shorter lens...]. l would use the camera for general photography too.

which camera has 'good'  , selectable spot focus? l cant seem to find this info on the net , only that various cameras have 9>60 focus points etc.

l like the Canon 7D and 70D , and the Nikon D7000 so far , and the Pentax K5 [ would the K5 iiS be better without anti-aliasing filter?]

Barney.

Barney

markparkinson998 wrote:

Hi Barney, if you are really serious about bird photography, I would definitely go for a dslr

I only have experience using Canon having started with a 10D and upgrading to a 40D and now using 5Dmkiii

I think a crop body is a good option as you rarely sem to have as much focal length as you want.

I dont have any experience with any of the lenses you mention, I am using mostly a Sigma 300-800 which works well on full frame

The Canon 100-400 is a popular lens but never really fancied it myself as I dont like the design.

Hi Mark , i would simply like to be able to take reasonably good photos of birds , as well as other photography. l dont want to be 'obsessed' and buy huge lenses etc.

can you tell me what you dont like about the 100-400 Canon lens?  suggested options?

What is a 'crop body'?

Barney.

Lachlan
Lachlan's picture

A 'crop' body is a camera with a smaller sensor than the old film (the general size of which is known as 'full frame', although this is an arbitrary label, as there we other sizes of film camera as well) cameras had. Basically, they're cheaper and smaller (frequently about 1/2 the size) than the 'full-frame' (non cropped) options, but suffer disadvantages for this. Here is a link to a diagram comparing different sizes on WIkipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SensorSizes.svg

It seems the whole photographic scene is still arguing over the relevance of this and the impact it has. Also, all of the Canon cameras you were looking at are APS-C (the name of the most common cropped sensor size), and your GH-1 has a smaller sensor still (it is called Micro Four Thirds). For most, the difference is irrelevant, as full frame cameras are really expensive. 

I use a Pentax K-5 II and the DA* 300mm f4 lens, and I don't find the shorter focal length to be too problematic; it's only 100mm, and the optics in the lens are fantastic (IMO)! Arguably, Pentax cameras are about the best value of money to features available at their level on the marketplace at the moment. The K-30 is, as you said, a really good value camera, especially if you shop around a bit and don't mind ordering from overseas. But Pentax doesn't do video very well at all. To me it doesn't matter, but if you're really keen on video in DSLRs, steer clear of Pentax. They're getting better, but it's still not very good. Most DSLRs aren't very good at video in general, and it's a pain to use their video modes. If you want do do video, you will be much better of getting a video camera to go with your DSLR. 

I'm not sure what you mean by 'Spot' focus? Do you mean single point AF? On most cameras with a gadzillion AF points you can choose to just use the central point, which is more reliable for bird photography (as with birds you usually want to nail their eye pretty accurately).

I'm not a fan of 2x teleonverters, they degrade the quality of the image to much for any gains. However 1.4x teleconverters are generally cheaper and don't degrade the image anywhere as much.

I this helps you, and sorry for the wall of text. smiley

sparrow
sparrow's picture

two web sites for you to have a look at  firstly " dpreview "will give you all the information you need then have a look at " Ken Rockwell.com"

rawshorty
rawshorty's picture

If you want to go Canon i would get the 7D. It really is a great birding camera.( and other types of photography)

I use centre spot focus but a lot of people will use centre spot expansion for birds in flight.

You can save a chunk of change if you buy second hand ( i got mine a year and half ago for $600 ).

Don't go cheap on the cf cards for it, get at least 2 Sandisc Extreme 16gig cards (about $76 each)

Shoot in RAW not jpeg.

As for the lens, i have had my Sigma 150-500 for a year now and it has performed very well for me.

I have had to set my micro adjust in the camera to +5 to make it sharp.

Two examples from people i know.

One has a Canon 300 f4 and he has his camera set to +10 MA to make it sharp.

The other has a Canon 100-400 and she has it set to +5 MA to make it sharp ( and has returned it to Canon Twice for faults ).

So don't go thinking that if you buy an L lens it will be perfect out of the box.

But the 100-400 is a great lens, don't get me wrong. Some people just don't like the push/pull zoom.

I would get a zoom, in time you will get closer to the birds and will be happy you can zoom back.

Good luck with your decision

Shorty

Shorty......Canon gear

Canberra

http://www.flickr.com/photos/rawshorty/ 

Barney

Thanks for the detailed info Shorty.

l wasnt sure if the 100-400 canon lens was 'push-pull'? l thought maybe it was the older model or something.

Barney.

markparkinson998
markparkinson998's picture

Hi Barney, I suppose we all have our own Ideas about what "reasonable" quality images.

If Iam going to be chasing birds around the bush in 30°+heat then I am not going to waste my time with a point and shoot camera but each to his own.

The reason I hate the 100-400 Is it is an old fashioned trombone design which sucks in air and any other dedris when zoomed in and out, I am sure Canon could do a better job and redesign it so it is always the same length

The two long Sigmas I use utilise internal focus and zoom, granted they are big and heavy lenses and certainly not aimed at the beginner end of the market.

I think the Canon 400 f5.6 is probably a good choice as its not hugely expensive, heavy but optically very good.

You will soon find out that 400mm is not a lot of focal length when photographing small birds and might be considered a minimum.

A crop body has an aps-c size sensor and would give you an equivalent 640mm with the 400mm lens.

Lachlan
Lachlan's picture

APS-C does NOT give you the equivalent of 600mm focal length on a 400mm lens. It gives you the field of view of a 600mm lens. This does not mean extra quality or any real 'extra reach', it is just design inherent crop. 

400m on Full Frame=400mm on APS-C=400mm on Micro 4/3

Only the Field of View changes. 

Lachlan
Lachlan's picture

Whoops, double post. Sorry!

markparkinson998
markparkinson998's picture

Hi I did say equivalent which is basically the same thing its an easier terminology for the less experienced to understand

The focal length of a lens remains the same regardless of sensor or format size

A 400mm is still 400mm on full frame or aps-c its basically like cropping and throwing away the outer border.

Lachlan
Lachlan's picture

I know, I wasn't having a go at you Mark. I was just clarifying to try and help Barney make his choice. 

Sadly, on a lot of websites they don't make the difference clear and make it seem like APSC magically gives you an extra so and so mm. 

markparkinson998
markparkinson998's picture

Hi Lachlan, no worries

I think manufacturers just like to confuse everyone.

I certainly noticed the difference when I changed from an aps-c sensor to full frame

Especially when photographing small birds, all of a sudden 800mm didn't seem that long anymore.

Mind you having the true 12mm on the sigma 12-24 was nice.

rawshorty
rawshorty's picture

Another lens to think about is the soon to be released Tamron 150-600. So far the specs are looking pretty good. It will be released in the US next week and i will be keeping my eye open on results from people that have pre-ordered it. In AUS i think it might be a couple of months and price will be about $1400 ($1100 in the US).

Shorty......Canon gear

Canberra

http://www.flickr.com/photos/rawshorty/ 

Lachlan
Lachlan's picture

It looks interesting... 150mm over the Sigma zooms (excluding the Sigmonster)... Wonder what the catch is?

It seems pretty similar in price to the Sigma 50-500, but with emphasis on the opposite end of the zoom range. Tamron is a good company, so maybe something similar in quality to the Sigma zooms but with a bit extra range?

Shame there isn't a K-mount variety. Pentax is in the process of developing its own superzoom, but something like the Tamron would probably sell like hotcakes in Pentaxland... 

Good on the people who preordered it; it's a bit risky forking out that much money on a unkown suprzoom. 

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